First off, thanks!
Just read your article and revised article regarding 'reinventing radio.' I agree completely with most all of your suggestions, in fact my brother and I (who host an afternoon radio show) have been doing most all of the things you suggest since the show's conception.
I will have to say that I disagree on the afternoon radio show perspective. I think it's 'old school radio' mentality that the morning show has to be the only "show" on the station. With our station we have a syndicated morning show and VT talent for middays so we needed to have a local show on the air in the afternoons. We are very very different from typical radio shows, short quick entertainment news along the lines of The Daily Show sarcasm and humor combined with heavy street and online promotions and marketing set it apart from the norm.
I think it's possible to have a show in the afternoon, not just a guy reading liner cards, you just have to work hard at making every second entertaining and worth it for the listeners.
One thing I noticed in listening to radio is that I know who the morning show personalities are on almost all the stations, but who are the afternoon people? They seem to lose their identity, which is what we wanted to create with The Matt and Ben Show.
Anyhow, great read and it's good to see that our program director handed us this article because it re-affirms what we've been working hard to achieve since we started the radio show 2 years ago.
One other thing that I think is easy to forget, yet crucial (which you hit on as well) is honesty. Honesty prevails in all forms of entertainment which is why I believe reality tv and YouTube/facebook is so popular.
Being honest in who you are whether it's talk, introing music or what have you, is important and often over looked. Doing your own show prep as you mentioned, writing your own jokes, etc etc.
The most successful radio programs are those which are honest and true and people can easily detect and relate to that.
Thanks!
Matt Tompkins
Imaging/Video Production Director
Clear Channel Omaha
Host - Matt and Ben Show
3-8pm M-F Twister 93.3
www.twister933.com
Mr. McVay,
I just wanted to write to say I thoroughly enjoyed your "Programming to Win" article in FMQB. In my market (#249-LaSalle-Peru, IL), too often I keep hearing "less talk, more music" coming from the bosses. Although we are not a PPM station, management is looking hard at PPM results which seem to echo the "talk kills ratings" message. As I continue to work towards becoming a future Programmer, this logic frustrates me, as it's largely flawed. If the listener didn't want to hear a voice, why would they choose radio over Ipods, as the majority currently does? The problem in radio today is that talk has become chatter and waste, not relevant and inspiring. Your article clearly spells out what is missing: relevant talk content "generating topicality". If a jock is just going to blah blah blah about nothing, then yeah, they really don't need to do anymore than "that was, this is", and here's something great ab out our station. But heck, any Jack or Jane off the street can be trained to do that. It's TALENT that can make each break compelling and relevant, and actually INCREASE programming value and ratings. Problem is, no one is saying that, and in today's market, most programmers don't have the time (or choose not to make the time) to work with their jocks to develop them into true talent. Not just at my station, but nationwide. If we simply stop talking, radio loses it's relevance. As you say, syndication "gets it", which is why right now, Syndication is helping recharge radio. Honestly, I'm one who prefers local over syndicated any day, mainly for the creation of jobs, and to keep radio centered on the local audience. However, if the local isn't getting it done, and simply just music filling, Syndication is the way to go. Just my 2 cents.
We met in Cleveland at TalenTrak a couple years ago, and you provided me with som e great insight during the Aircheck clinic that inspires me to this day, and has helped me become the talent I am. I wanted to say Thanks! I continue to be a fan of yours, and your insight. I hope to see you again at Conclave in July.
Best regards,
Chris Hauger
AKA - Chris Carson
WGLC-FM
Gary Donohue, recognized worldwide as a marketing innovator, responded to a recent quote by Mike McVay in Inside Radio Magazine...
Dear Mike,
Inside Radio recently ran THIS article containing a quote from you.
IR: P2s helped drive the Wave’s turnaround — but it may not be a strategy for everyone. One key to KTWV’s ratings rebound was putting out the welcome mat for P2 listeners. With 6+ cume growing from 1.5 million in December to 1.9 million in February, it appears to be a successful strategy. “A lot of smooth jazz stations got so focused on super-serving the P1s that they didn’t realize they had maximized P1s and weren’t growing the P2s,” PD Jhani Kaye says. “That’s how we made [Clear Channel AC] KOST [Los Angeles] #1. We made it everyone’s second choice. It’s the same way that we improved K-Earth.”
McVay Media president Mike McVay agrees that too many broadcasters focus all of their stations on P1s alone. “Focusing on P1s-only usually — but not always — means that you’re a niche format. A funny thing happens when you target a niche format at P1s to the exclusion of P2s and P3s. You get niche ratings.”
Depending on format and market conditions, Coleman Insights VP John Boyne echoes the belief that stations sometimes should look beyond P1 listeners to maximize PPM ratings. “While P1s drive ratings, it’s a misconception that you should always focus on them, especially if your P1 audience isn’t big enough,” he says. However, Jacobs Media president Fred Jacobs says that’s a valid fallback strategy only after a station has exhausted a P1-centric approach. “For the majority of radio stations, super-serving P1s is the way to go,” he says. “In many cases so many radio stations aren’t effectively doing that, especially when you look at the customer service you see in the new companies that radio is competing with, like Apple and Pandora. We think we’re serving P1s but we’re not even close.”
For what it’s worth, I always viewed the concept of P1 as a rational alternative to the Sam Paley hackneyed 80/20 rule… Back in the 70s, and early 80s, research savvy stations were only focused on the diaries with the highest TSL, the top 20% delivering 80% of a station’s Total TSL AQHs.
P1 was a forward battlefield for me…I studied “preference” and created a methodology for defining a diary by its consumer behavior. And, the difference between what I did and the old 80/20 diary review crew was that my method allowed for a diary keeper to be classified by ALL the stations they listened to. Some diary keepers would go as high as P12! The resultant data analysis was nothing short of going from a flat one dimensional ranker, to a holographic 3D helix. Everything looked different. Nothing about that research model has changed in the 25 years since. Back then I learned that the biggest block of “consistently manageable” diaries came up with a ratio more like 40/70. This proved to me that it was really a “sales” problem, which was refined as a “BRAND AWARENESS” problem. Some may still recall that I was the featured speaker at many national conventions and private corporate seminars, in which I revealed how BRAND DEVELOPMENT could be accomplished through the P1-P2-P3 Preference profile analytics of Radio Audiences and TV Newscast Audiences. Oh Yeah! We did this for news anchors, etc!
I must address the “P2 Welcome Mat.” My effort as you may recall was to define the P1 battles, to maximize the “birds of a feather” strategy. And subsequently, when we won, our ratings clearly increased. The OH WOW by default, was a trackable proof that we eroded the competition. That was a form of double jeopardy to our competitors. If we won the P1 battles on the ground , we could attract the P2 and P3 cohorts, and sap the P1s from our competitors. At one convention a competing PD (a nice guy who eventually became a client and follower) stood up during the Q&A and made the statement, “What you did to us was like someone coming up from behind and hitting me in the head with a baseball bat!” They didn’t see it coming, and it was deadly. In essence, we didn’t just put out a P2 welcome mat, we forced the competition into NICHE STATUS!
You may recall that I worked diligently to find the prime battlegrounds where Station A and Station B had comparable P1 levels, and once identified, we custom developed tactics to upgrade Station As P2’s and P3’s who were currently Station Bs P1s. We did that with marketing, contests, community events, embracing the “precinct “ politics tactic I was exposed to in Chicago, vis-à-vis “DA MARE HISSELF”. As I state this fact, I am looking at the glass paper weights touting Cleveland’s #1 FM and another for #1 AM, during the same book! It was a group effort, and the VP GM handed out stars to all who contributed! Nice. You betcha – campaign politics tactics and strategies won the most important election – in the ratings! We were always using P1 data to find the P2 and P3 swing voters…we never created a NEW candidate for P2 and P3 voters! We just campaigned effectively so the P2s and P3s swung to our existing CANDIDATE. Sound familiar?
The biggest changes since then are:
a) more signals on radio and more entertainment choices through other media, especially hand held appliances – in other words, atomization has driven down TSL and the number of “entertainment moment” choices consumers will give to radio.
b) ratings technology has changed slightly and the result is an emphasis on P1s where the meter is present. My study of various recent resources has not convinced me that any significant change in P1 ratings data has occurred where diaries prevail (see point a). Rather, P1 changes of note by the trades and pundits (aka The Usual Suspects "Keyser Soze") are the default result of atomization, and the technological research change (meters) only reflected the effects of atomization. Since this perceived change was occurring in major markets where the big bucks in advertising existed, P1 focus by Arbitron therefore became the poster child for pushing conversion to meters across the board. Oddly, P! information has monetized radio audience in a very strange sort of way.
My bet is that if there was a station who was in a pitched battle with a competitor who had a few bucks to spend doing some of the things we used to do, then the new headline would probably be, “Consultant cracks the P1 Meters Code!” Just send no Angels and Demons…
Godspeed!
“As the spirit wanes, the form appears”
Gary J. Donohue
Donohue Research & Marketing
512 Gardiner Rd.
Richmond, VA 23229
Cell Phone: 804-928-8591
gdonohue@garydonohue.com
A response to Jim McVay's Who's Guarding Your Gate...
Jim:
Thank you so much for writing that article! I'm a business manager at a radio station in California and you hit the nail on the head! I had a meeting with the people assigned to answer our phones and went over your points. Now how about a column on how the gate keepers dress? Our jocks dress in comfortable clothing...jeans. But I don't feel this is
appropriate for the administration staff when clients or listeners visit our stations.
Thanks for your time!
Darleen P.
Dear Dan:
Wonderful series of articles about stationality. The word significance is what kept coming to me as I was reading along.
Significant: important; of consequence.
Very simply, there is only so much room in a person's life. We prioritize. Usually measured by just how significant something is. From relationships to radio stations, we have room for only so many in our minds and our lives. In a given day I drink coffee, diet soda and water. It is rare I consume anything else. Television? I don't go a day without CNN, ESPN and Comedy Central. (For the Dailey Show and The Colbert Report) Lately I've been slipping in Turner Movie Classics . That's just about it. Websites? All Access, My AOL account and OhioState.Rivals.com. (I've just started reading some radio based blogs)
These are the things that are significant to me. These products and services speak to me, meet a need, keep me informed. There are other news outlets, other sports shows and an infinite number of beverages. They are not significant to me and it will be very hard for any of them to break through. They can, if what they deliver is or becomes significant. They won't get me (or you) without a lot of work and a great product or service. I don't have surplus energy, money or time to waste on insignificance.
My question is...how significant is your radio station? The music, especially if it is well done, goes a long way toward attracting the partisans of a given format. But what happens when there are several stations playing the same or similar music? How about all the internet music streams? (I program the Disco Channel at Slacker.com where you can skip songs you don't want to hear or even eliminate certain artists in case you never want to hear the chimpanzee screams of Barry Gibb ever again!) My son spends hours listening to music...from the TV!!! Yep, all those music channels at the end of your cable/satellite television is where my son is exploring all the various music genres. Daniel is not looking for a lot of significance at 14 years old. (too bad there are not any stations even TRYING to attract him! Can you say lost generation?) Your adult listener has well defined areas of interests and needs. Does your station reflect her? Do you know her? SHE needs to be SIGNIFICANT to YOU (and your organization) before you've got any chance of being in her top three...even if you are playing music that should appeal to her.
Are your personalities significant? While I was on the beach...I listened to a lot of radio station streams. I'm embarrassed by how INsignificant most of these personalities sound. No connection. No content. No SIGNIFICANCE!. While programming WKWK/Wheeling, WVAF/Charleston and WGFB/Rockford, I always used morning air personalities in my other dayparts. I wanted my staff to CONNECT. To MATTER. To be significant. Whether talking about the community, American Idol or themselves, they were encouraged to make a connection. STAND OUT. As a program director you should be seeking ways to make your station significant to the community it serves, the issues that are of concern (there are more than you may be aware of---ask around). Your best insurance policy against a downturn in the quality of the music you program, is being significant. As the new OM/PD/AM Show host at Mix 105.3 in Tri-Cities, Washington, I've spent a lot of time asking the locals about what matters to them. Some themes are universal, some are a little more interesting to those who call eastern Washington home.(Heat, Wind, Immigration, Irrigation, and Nuclear Energy)
Be SIGNIFICANT. Listeners need to come to your station to quench their thirst for it.
Sharefully,
Doug Daniels
Program Director/Morning Personality
KONA-FM/MIX 105.3
I just read your article "These Old Shoes"...
That is EXACTLY what I am talking about when I say the word "connections".
Those "connections" are where the staying power of radio is in my view. Those shoes are priceless far in excess of their original price...you'll never sell them...they will never go into the trash...because they are part of your very soul...
The masters like Lujack...Fatherley...Jim Davis...understood those connections and how to push those buttons in listeners. And of course you...the day I heard you on Magic in Cleveland...is burned onto my very soul as well...incredibly well done. THAT is the power of personality...of connecting...and the shoes are like that.
We have connections to songs...as well as jocks...that is why "Jack" will never be a top ten format contender. The very most powerful of the elements...has been compromised...I understand that it is a cume building format and why Guy developed that format but it's appropriate in some markets...it can't stand up to a guy or gal that understands "connections" and old shoes...that own a piece of our hearts...
Be well old friend...I love you man...
Ralph "Allen" Allenbaugh
President/Owner
Ralph Allen Media
As always: The record industry wants CONTROL, and Internet radio is another brick in the wall that destroys their 'model'. That may sound out of the box, but these people will try to hold on until the Titanic is at the bottom of the ocean, and the band has stopped playing. Remember: They were thrilled with the system in which terrestrial paid ZERO for the music.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens Marketing
Mike,
Always good to read your newsletter. Wanted to let you know in regard to "win your life back" we have really refined this promotion in a great way at KXOJ/Tulsa. I've run it 3 times over the last 4 years under the moniker "The Contest of All Time" since every prize gives you your time back. In addition to the obvious stuff, we have also set up some great "over-the-top" prizes like having the city's top chef come in and cook the meal in your home, and teach you to cook it yourself if you want. We've hung christmas lights for a man in the hospital, redone an injured police officer's garage, sent countless moms limo shopping, etc...
The catch is we always go for the "raving fan" on top of the service. The winner says she has not time to take her kids Christmas shopping? Fine we take them in a limo AND pay for the gifts we buy AND arrange lunch for the now free Mom with her friends AND provide a new washer and dryer to do her laundry faster so she can go to lunch etc. You can go as many layers as you want and have the resources for.
Anyway- just wanted to share. There are some OLD pictures here.
Bob Thornton
Program Director
100.9 KXOJ
Tulsa, Ok
Hi Dan…
I finally got around to reading the McVay newsletter for March, and saw your column.
Congratulations! You’re the first person I’ve read who’s nailed what may be radio’s greatest strength as we move forward --- providing “connections.”
We just finished doing some in-depth listener interviews for one of our client stations. They’re a youth-based station that’s trying to get a handle on its root benefits for on and off-air marketing. One of the fundamental benefits, once you stripped it all down, was that listening to the station made these listeners feel, in their words, “connected to the city.” It was the one thing their MP3 players or even their cell phones, as much as they loved them, couldn’t do.
Thanks!
Jeff Vidler
Solutions Research Group
Hello Daniel,
Congratulations on the excellent article: "Radio's most valuable competitive advantage"... and so spot on - even for stations "down under".
An new industry word for now and more importantly, the future should be "Relevance" - to station's market and/or target audience...and clients.
Kind regards,
Don Dawkins
Hello Mike,
I am not in any way connected to the radio industry, but I came across your article "State of Adult Contemporary" while surfing the internet, and I would like to say that I agree very strongly with most of what you have to say.
Although my musical tastes generally fall into the "adult contemporary" category, I find that I am frustrated with what most stations are doing with the format. Most of my frustration can be best summarized with your phrase "You don't miss anything if you don't listen."
Even when I am listening to music, I like to feel that I am connected to the world, and I agree with you that news is important even on FM.
I want to know that someone is there keeping an eye on what is happening in my city and around the world. I want to hear brief news reports from time to time, and when something important is happening, I want to know about it. When I am listening to music, I don't want to have to go "surfing" the dial to find out if a tornado is about to touch down!
I agree with you that DJs should have something interesting to say, and I agree with what you say on your web site about the importance of show preparation. I like to hear lots of music, but I want to know something about the music I'm hearing too. And personality IS
important- I agree 100%. it's really important on the morning show, but it's important the rest of the day too. A competent DJ can still let his/her personality shine through, even if they only talking once in a while. Most program directors seem to be afraid to let this happen.
The one area where I disagree with you to some extent, is where you state that "the further an adult goes beyond the age of 40, the more important it is to them that they hear familiar music." I am 60 years old, but I still want to hear new music. In talking with my friends, I find that I am not alone in my opinion.
I feel that a good music director should be able to blend new songs and familiar tunes together to create a mix that is both exciting and consistent with the "overall sound" that a station wishes to achieve.
I want to be "surprised" once in a while by hearing a brand new song that is really good, or a great "oldie" that I have completely forgotten about.
The CHR and top 40 stations are playing new music, but a lot of it is not to my taste (I don't like the "harder" stuff, and I definitely don't like hip hop.) When I turn to an AC station, I'm hearing the same OLD songs over and over.
Listening to internet radio has made me aware of the vast quantity of excellent "adult contemporary" music that is currently available.
It's too bad that I can't hear most of it on my local stations.
Neil St.Clair
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Hi Mike,
As someone who was intimately involved with the programming of WVOR and WBUF in the early eighties, I must correct you on a couple of points...
One...Joel Lind was never involved in the programming of WBUF, a station that I consulted as a Lincoln Group employee from 1983 and later managed from 1984-1991. Joel WAS involved in programming music at WVOR in the late 70s before the advent of Selector and the involvement of the Research Group.
Two...While Jay Meyers programmed an earlier incarnation of WVOR in the 70s as an Oldies station, he was long gone from the company by the 80s. I later hired Jay in the mid-80s as WBUF's Program Director after he had left WFIL in Philadelphia. After 18 months and great ratings success, Jay left to manage Bernie Mann's FM in Greensboro, NC.
All the best,
Larry White
Daniel,
I found the supermarket analogy ("Fix the Product First") interesting, on a couple of levels.
Safeway purchased a quality, locally-owned and much-loved Philadelphia chain called Genuardi’s and ruined it. The slashed costs, service and quality, and consumers began complaining.
A couple of years earlier, Genuardi’s had purchased a VERY high-end, gourmet supermarket in South Jersey called Zagara’s (they had a great logo… a strawberry served as the apostrophe), and turned it into a mini-chain with four stores in affluent areas. Safeway ruined those too. All four are now closed, including the original location, which is now an outdoor sports supply place (tents, rafts, boots, etc.)
I’m glad that they’re now revamping, but some of those stores will never come back, and many Philadelphians will tell you “Genaurdi’s was great before they ruined it.”
Interestingly, Zagara’s was the first - and to my knowledge - only store of it’s type that offered fine wines and advice. Unlike other parts of the country, it’s unlawful for supermarkets to sell alcohol in this area. Zagara’s worked hard to get a special exemption for wine and beer. Safeway gutted the wine department and replaced it with fresh flowers and gift baskets. Given the new wine department initiative mentioned in your piece, I guess they learned from THAT mistake.
One more supermarket observation…if Pepsi or Nabisco or Heinz wants a little more cume for their products, they can purchase endcaps and advantageous eye-level shelf placement. If a record company tries purchasing prime placement with a radio station, all hell breaks loose.
Of course, I understand that supermarkets don’t use the public airwaves and aren’t subject to the same restrictions, but they certainly ARE public “accommodations.” Last time I checked, they DO accept taxpayer-funded food stamps.
Maybe Elliot Spitzer should take a good hard look at that Oreos endcap, loaded with trans-fat. Or the Mondavi endcap in that Safeway wine section. Aren’t these things more harmful to society than a spin program stiff airing at 3am?
…just some of the wacky stuff I’m wondering about on this Monday morning.
I hope this finds you well, have a GREAT holiday, and thank you again for yet another awesome contribution to All Access!
Dave Hoeffel
All Access East
From Marty Forbes, CFMG/Edmonton:
Daniel - enjoyed your column on "New talent" in the McVay memo. It's been a prime point of mine for several years and I've been the Chair of NAIT's Radio and TV course for 15 consecutive years so that I get to MEET the best students BEFORE they enter the business....and if you don't mind I'll share you a few thoughts.
1. Get involved and MENTOR a student.
2. Stop telling them that "radio's not fun anymore" - "that you can't make any money in this business" and that "there are no jobs." (With consolodation in Canada they are opening FOUR and FIVE radio stations at a time in every size market so there is LOTS of opportunity....and the Cream rises to the top).
3. We do NAIT DAY - where the entire second year broadcast class sits on on 'every' department for a morning including on air. We then have our KEY personnel do a Q and A session with these kids and no question is taboo.....tell them how to approach a pd - why it's good to go to a smaller market - how to properly prepare a resume and demo - they love talking to high profile personalities to hear 'how they did it.'
4. RETURN their phone calls and emails - show them YOU are approachable - give them a tip or an aircheck cuz you might just be helping develop a talent that you can use later. KEEP IN TOUCH when they move through the system.
5. Hire them as op's or Street Team people - we have more than 50% of our staff hired from broadcast schools and a great many of them "including morning show hosts" started at broadcast schools.
6. Practicum programs are great so get involved - let these students work in 'every' department so that they get a good snap shot of the business. Most want to START on the air but it's uncanny how many change when they see how they might fit in in programming - music dept - promo - and even sales.
In any case, broadcasters should stop complaining about the lack of talent and use the same system that Hockey does...find 'em young...teach 'em...let them get experience in a minor or medium market and up to the big time.
Maybe they'd stay longer if we opened more and 'better' doors for them.
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